Well they killed "Spidey" yesterday.
The famed Utah Bull.
Gov tag holder Denny Austad took the bull with Doyle Moss's outfit.

Over 500 inches of antler.
WOW!

Why are there so many people in that photo?

"team" effort?

Guided hunt?

What's a Gov tag and what does that entitle one too?

Sal--- I've heard varying remarks as to whether "Spidey" was a high fence Bull....do you know if that is true or not?

Still a dam respectable animal.

I'd hit it.

The guy in the photo buys what is known as a "Governor's tag" it allows you to hunt before and after everyone else in any unit you want.
Utah has the world's best trophy elk hunting right now.
Austad has bought the Utah Governors tag for sevearal years now.
He paid $170,000 this year.
Mossback guides employ probably over a dozen or more scouters looking for the biggest bull in the state, then they go hunt him.
Controversial, but they kill some of the biggest bulls in the world.
RvW, I don't believe he was from an elk farm despite the rumors.


http://mossback.com/Trophy_Gallery/trophy_gallery.html

Why so many guys in that picture is right. What a pile of ass holes. Thats not hunting, thats exploitation of a resource.

Utah sold out big time with the land owner set up anyway. Its bull [censored] and took hunting away for the avg Joe.

Idaho has kicked all these chumps out of the state. U.S.O ( United States Outfitters ) was actually trying to sue the state because they would not allow them to come in here and do that type of bull [censored] guiding for rich dudes.

I have a pretty strong opinion on this one. Sorry if its offensive to anyone. MiGHT AS WELL BEEN AN ELK FARM... It was locked up land with all kinds of dudes with no tags running around looking for something they already knew was there some old douch bag could shoot it.

Figure he did any packing ??? Me neither

No offense taken B-RUN.
Don't know what you mean by "land owner set up".

Every prime western state sells these Governor type tags for their "glamour species"

At Last year's Rocky Mountain Elk Convention they auctioned off some high profile tags.

Here is what they fetched...

1. $172,000 New Mexico Big Game Enhancement Package
Elk Foundation partner: New Mexico Department of Game and Fish. Includes tags for elk, deer, pronghorn, oryx and ibex valid for the 2008-09 season on any open public lands or private lands with permission.

2. $125,000 Arizona Special Elk Permit
Elk Foundation partner: Arizona Game & Fish Department. Includes one bull elk tag valid for the 2008-09 season on any open public lands or private lands with permission.

3. $95,000 Nevada Wildlife Heritage Rocky Mountain Elk Tag
Elk Foundation partner: Nevada Department of Wildlife. Includes one bull elk tag valid for the 2008 season on any open public lands or private lands with permission.

4. $90,000 New Mexico Special Elk Permit
Elk Foundation partner: New Mexico Department of Game and Fish. Includes one bull elk tag valid for the 2008-09 season on any open public lands or private lands with permission.

5. $71,000 New Mexico Special Deer Permit
Elk Foundation partner: New Mexico Department of Game and Fish. Includes one deer tag valid for the 2008-09 season on any open public lands or private lands with permission.

6. $65,000 Washington Special Eastside Elk Permit
Elk Foundation partner: Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife. Includes one bull elk tag valid for the 2008 season on any open lands in eastern Washington.


Utah has probably the tightest allotment of elk tags in the west.

Every guy that wants a monster bull applies for a tag every year, myself included.

The success of Utah's trophy elk is absolutley phenomenal.

It used to be a big deal to shoot ANY six point bull in Utah, now it is hands down the best trophy bull state in the west.

Numerous 400" bulls are taken each year.

Certainly they could increase the tags by the hundreds and let "the average Joe" hunt his raghorn bulls again, but there are general units just for that very reason.

I take a lot more pride in my DIY hunts and find success therein much more rewarding, but if I had the resources of the guys that buy these tags, I would probably be doing the same thing to some degree.

bowsite has some great threads regarding the spidey hunt/controversy. Word is that this guy hunted over 25 days before getting his shot at this bull. Yes, they knew the elk was there/somewhere, yes, he had a team of scouts helping him. Still, sounds like he hunted his as off for an awesome animal.

Here is what I am talking about...

Land owner gets X amount of tags because he owns the land. This is because they figure he has to let the wild animals eat "his" food so he should get to shoot a few if he wants.

In most states, he is able to sell those tags to the highest bidder.. which is [censored]. Wild game belongs to the public.. not Joe rancher.

In the end, land is locked up by the owner. In addition, huge parcels of land have been bought up simply for the tags they are eligible for.

400 class bulls are not that big of a deal anymore. The thing they most always have in common is that they are shot on privet lands.. by rich dudes. Utah is probably the worst / best example.

Its like the bass bubba's who get all creamy when they watch Bill Dance pull yet another 7 lb bass out of that same lame ass farm pond he has been fishing in for the last 15 years... B.F.D

I have access to a good bit of land because of the old school hand shake and respect. Does not hurt to have been raised in a ranching family as well, but can tell ya that when hunting is for sale, its not real real hunting anymore.

Not being too familiar with guided hunts, I was under the impression that in Alaska, and maybe parts of Canada, that guides "own", "lease", or are "allotted" and area by the government. How is this different?

Being an "average Joe" I can't afford one of those tags. But, if the whole cost of that tag went to the Agency for elk management, it would sure take a lot of regular tags to make up the difference.

Resource management costs, and the state's are certainly not stepping up to the plate with more general fund money. More and more, it is on the backs and pocketbooks of the users.

[quote=B-RUN STEELY] Here is what I am talking about...

Land owner gets X amount of tags because he owns the land. This is because they figure he has to let the wild animals eat "his" food so he should get to shoot a few if he wants.

In most states, he is able to sell those tags to the highest bidder.. which is [censored]. Wild game belongs to the public.. not Joe rancher.

[/quote

I understand landowner tags.
The way you singled out Utah, made me think you were referring to something else.

The way I see it, the entire world revolves around money.
I don't like it either, but that's the way it is.
If the ranchers and landowners couldn't get big money for these tags and hunts, they would probably subdivide and build "rocky mountain retreats" for upper income suburbanites.

I'd rather see it kept wild even though I can't afford to play the game.

There are LOTS of public land units across the west where the average guy can hunt trophy sized game if he plays the lottery draws and builds his points.

I'm doing it next week in Wyoming.

Hey look! It only took six guides to get that one. Harvesting the biggest, baddest, SOB to ever walk the mountain side is bad business in my mind. That guy was in his prime and cut down during it. Just about how many more big assed elk he could have made. Oh well, slap him on the wall with the others. Don't get me wrong. If I saw him. I would shoot him too. Just my hypocritical rant because I have never seen anything like that ever. Not even in a zoo.

You both have valid points, BTW. One arguement doesn't negate the other.

After looking at the photos of this magnificent brood stock bull and the guy that shot it my better half said, "I bet it's really really small and doesn't work anymore." I about fell outa my chair laughing so hard....

I don't have a problem with the guide business, and ultimately that's what this is...the Mossback crew just keeps more guys in the mountains looking for special bulls than other outfits, and they are damn good at it. Is it really that different than a 1x1 guided hunt? Or a 1x1 fishing trip? Any way you slice it, you're still paying for someone else's knowledge. Not packing out the bull? Is that like not filleting your catch on a charter? Or what if you use horses to pack out your bull?

The landowner deal is a bit different. I don't know how Utah does it. If they just give landowners tags because the elk munch on their grass, that doesn't seem right. In New Mexico, to get a tag the landowner has to allow the public on his ranch. That's a pretty cool way to do it. I took full advantange of that access when I had a NM tag.

Even though I don't have strong feelings about the way this bull was taken, no question I was rooting for him to survive. He's been widely talked about/publicized all year. To me, pretty amazing he survived this long with all those professionals out there looking for him. I think that's awesome. He probably lasted long enough into the breeding season this year to pass his genes on one more time. Well done.

the guy with the WA. governors tag this year was Dan Agnew from Vancouver. The bull is a 9x10, with a green score of 450" plus. It will be the new WA state record. It was shot in the blues on 3 Sept. I have pics, but there too big to post.

another monster bull. bought and paid for.

Just another example of the rules not applying to someone with enough cash. Nice bull, but the politics and improvised regulation associated with these Governers Tags makes me sick.

Do I have to hear again, "It's their land and they can do whatever they want with it."

BAAAARRRRFFFFFFFFFFFFF

come on, chicken...

It is odd to see such a animal. I never had a clue there was a 500+ inch animal on public land, I thought those were a rare find even in high fenced areas...

Although I would have loved to have harvested an animal of that sort, I'd prefer to do it alone or with a buddy. Not have someone lead me by leash to it... That bugs me...

Keith <>

In this aspect you are wrong.. That bull was taken on public land as are most of the big bulls in UTAH, Oregon, and many other western states. Its called good management, you can buy land owner tags in many states and I have little issue with them because when you see how the general public treats our NF/BLM lands I wouldn't want the vast majority of these dickweeds on my property either. So heres your 2 options, one the ranchers complain complain complain until the state puts out too many tags and lowers the herd numbers drastically, or the elk and deer recieve a value are protected. In utah there are CMWU hunts that allow the gnereal public to hunt the ranches that tags are sold on. While the Idea of the Gov tag is hard to swallow due to jealousy that you don't have the cash, the value put back into AH&E benefits all hunters.

As for USO, they are the lowest of the low IMHO. Mossback is a much classier operation from what I understand, and they are the best at what they do. No different than a really top shelf fishing guide IMHO.

I have a challenge for those dudes in the photograph. Come out to one of the popular Eastern WA elk units during the last weekend of modern firearm and find a spike bull. Then see how far your $170,000 and your 6 F'n buddies gets ya.

Lmfao...

I have no doubt that they would find the biggest spike in the unit.
Dislike them as you may, they are VERY good at what they do....


http://mossback.com/Trophy_Gallery/trophy_gallery.html

Thats the bull that impresses me. You ask 1000 elk hunters where the best trophy potential lies,I'll bet 999 of them DON'T say Washington.

As far as the Governors tag goes. It sounds like a lot of you are jealous you don't have the cash to buy the tag yourself. The G tag isn't any different than getting drawn for an any bull tag. He just has the cash to guarantee getting drawn.

Another thing to consider,is that just because that bull was freak,doesn't mean that ANY of his offspring are now or ever will be in his class. To make bulls like that you need the cow to be the same kind of material. She needs great genetics as well. Just because he has big antlers,doesn't mean he can knock up any cow that walks by and get his clone.

It boils down to an individual's definition of Trophy. To me, any trophy is something hard-earned after years of diligence in pursuit and schooling ones self. These rich arrogant mutherphuckers that likely reak of 50-year old scotch and Cuban cigars that short circut that definition by cutting to the front of the line with their check book and a squad of executioners have lost sight of that. Much like an NFL coach going to the shop where the Heisman Trophy is made and buying it right off the self, where is the sense of accomplishment and pride in doing that?

You can defend these guys if you like, but the Governor's Tag senario is a wide sidestep around sportsmanship to say the least, as are the specifics related to the killing of a large number of animals in the record books.

Sal you need to load the boy up and make a trip up here to witness the march of the rifle carrying pumpkins. We call it our modern firearm elk season. In the most popular eastern WA units; regular joe can only shoot a spike bull. If you are lucky enough to draw a special permit for a bull or cow, your chances are a bit better. The season is only a week long capped by the weekends. By the last weekend the herds have been pushed, herded, scared, and ran up and down every frickin mountain in the east cascades. Usually they are nowhere to be found. They are in that magical spot where no hunters go. I would actually like to see if those mossback F'ers could pull it off.

I looked at their website. Wow, those are some magnificent animals. I couldn't help but notice there is a group photo for every kill. My best guess is that they have the hunter sit still in an area and the rest of the F sticks herd the critters to him.

Here is my rant on the gov's tag. I know a few people who work for WDFW. They had a picture of the bull that was taken with the WA gov tag . Really nice bull, they said potential new state record. The bad thing is that a bowhunter, who had drawn one of the very few bull tags for that area, had been scouting this bull for a very long time. He was actually there scouting the day the mob of guys showed up to kill this bull. Can you imagine how this guy felt when he found out that some rich [censored] paid out the ass to get into the area before anyone else had a chance (with a rifle noless).

Is it the money thing or the guide thing? Or both?

I understand the dislike of the guide gang thing for sure.

Guided fisheremen are buying their way to success too wouldn't you say?

That said, my most satisfying hunts have all been DIY affairs.


I know a guy that makes more money than he can spend, he hunts the world over with guides and without.

Not an arrogant assshole at all and one helluva hunter .

I hate arrogant pricks of all income levels.



I see these arguments ALL THE TIME!

The unguided guys beating up on the guided guy.

Guys that hunt public ground berating the guys that hunt private land.

Guys that hunt general units beating up on guys that hunt limited quota areas.

Muzzleloader hunters beating up on rifle guys.

Bowhunters beating up on rifle AND muzzleloader guys.

Recurve guys beating up on compound bowhunters.

Long bowhunters beating up on modern bowhunters.

Meat hunters berating trophy hunters.

God it gets old.

To each their own, that is why there are more choices than just Vanilla.

Both.

I've never once hunted with a guide. I never will. I have only fished with a guide once. I don't like having my hand held to do anything. I will say that at least the fisherman that chooses to go guided is relagated to the willingness of the fish to participate. No so with hunting. These Mossyback dudes remind me of Marshall Stockburn and his deputies gunning down the guy in the move Unforgiven. What chance did he have? Where does it end? One of those professional guys hobbling a few of those "trophys" and then calling checkbook boy in for the kill? Who F'n knows. I just know it's not for me and I don't respect the mentality.

The method in which this "team" of experts uses to find and kill these trophys is essentially "party hunting," which is specifically prohibited in the regulations and is illegal. I'm not sure how the state justifies it for the GT. These guys fan out over all the ridges in prime habit and glass for biggest animal they can find, watch it bed down and radio back the coordinates to the trigger-man, who ambles in at day break and goes "BANG." Add to that they are doing it with an "out-of-season" pass. I wouldn't have my picture taken with such an animal reguardless of how big it was.

This hunt was probably the exception to the rule, but they hunted this bull 26 days. The GOV tag does provide benefits to all sportsmen in the form of AH&E improvements. Not my choice, but I fail to see a big difference from an ethical stand point in how they did this and 6 of my buddies trying to help a friend fill his sheep tag here in oregon. They chose the mossback route with spotters all over the place to find one particualr ram. The only difference IMHO was money.

I think this is the crux of the whole argument for me. Combining radio's and GPS's, especially Garmin Rino's that also show your buddie's exact location, is a clear breach of fair chase in my opinion! It should be illigal in every state and is in many state's already of which I think Utah is one. I read recently that a few state's are monitoring radio frequencie's and handing out tickets for "party hunting." I've got no problem with that. Now if this guy and this Mossback group met back at camp each night, pulled out a map, and planned the next day's hunt which happend to culminate with this incredible Bull then good for them! As unfair as it may be, for me, with the money involved I don't think that is the case and this hunt just don't meet the sniff test.

Trophy's are different for everyone. I'm gearing up for my 3rd serious hunt and have purchased probably 8-10 deer tags. I've yet to pull the trigger. For me a trophy is when I head out for a well planned still hunt (usually alone) and beat any legal buck at it's own game in it's own backyard! Now this guy may totally agree with me and considers this hunt nothing more then a unique oppertunity and a chance to give a whole bunch of money to a resource he deeply cares about. Who knows?

For me no matter the tools chosen or the money spent it's all about fair chase! Without it there is no trophy!

Sol,
I have a ton of respect for you.
Few people have anything on you when it comes to fishing big steelhead.
We are going to have to disagree on a few points regarding guided hunting though.
If you have never been on a guided hunt and really don't have anything to base your judgement on.

Lots of guys that have never been on one share your sentiment.

I'm not into a guide holding my hand walking me up to the corn flinger and saying "shoot him".

I have had a passion for the big game animals of North America all my life.

Highest on my list are some of the world's most difficult to hunt animals.
I daydream about going sheep hunting in the far north some day.

Laws and logistics mandate the use of a guide to hunt Dall or Stone sheep.

Those hunts are not "gentlemen's hunts" instead they test the guide and client to the highest degree.

It becomes a team effort as both rely on each other for survival in extremely harsh vertical country miles away from civilization.

Certainly there are cushy guided hunts that require nothing more from the hunter than a leisurely stroll and the pull of a trigger.

I enjoy hunting on my own and will continue to as long as I can, but given a chance, I'd jump on several guided hunts and be rightfully proud of the "Trophy" I was able to take.

A good mountain guide ain't doing anything I don't do when hunting big mountain country.
Burning legs and lungs followed by glassing intentley for that one special animal.
Some of the most memorable times spent on a hunt are the harsh living conditions endured while living in the wilderness testing your survival skills and mental toughness.

On my guided brown bear hunt, my pack weighed just as much as my guide's, we siwashed out in the rain and snow and I spotted the bear before he did.

I suppose if I could, I'd first opt to hunt them on my own, but I can't.

I'd trade places with this guy in a New York minute and nobody could tell me it wasn't a hard earned trophy even though a guide was used.

I may have been a bit "harsh" with my anti-guide sentiment. There is definately a time and place for them. If I ever get a chance to arrow a brown or grizzy bear at close range, which is on my life list BTW, I damn sure want a guide in the distance drawing a bead on the bear for safe measure. The hunts that require a guide are also understandable.

I guess what really chaps my hyde about the GT hunts is the combination of purchased privledge and using a gang of dudes to do the actual hunting. That shi% is fuc%ed-up.

I am with you on almost every aspect of what you have said Sol

It is exactly that. Purchased priviledge. Nothing more. Now if the guy had gone in and done it himself that would be another story completely. But shelling out the money to outdo anyone with the tag, and then having six other guys find the target and take him to it, how is that sport at all. Sounds like a guy that I used to work for. Everyone does all the work and then he would run to the boss man with his knee pads on and say look what I did. When the only thing that guy did for himsef was dip his hands in the pile of paint that teacher poured out for him to smear all over the blank contruction paper that teacher laid out for. I say the trophy goes on his wall, but his name doesn't. Just my opinion.

It took 25 days for 7 guys to find that Bull in that open country ? After knowing where it was ? I cant see how anyone of them can be that much of a Hunter. But It is the most beautiful freak I've ever seen in my life.

Glad that wasn't my quote.

You certainly would not see the numerous 400 bulls that they have to their credit if Mossback were hunting any other state than Utah (Well maybe Arizona).

However, they would be just about the best anywhere they went.

A close friend of mine is an elk hunting machine.
He has hunted them in several states every year for twenty plus years looking for big bulls.
One year he went guided with Kim Bonnet's outfit, Bucks & Bulls outfitters in Utah.
He ended up killing a near 370 bull after a long hunt.

He later told me that his guide was the most knowledgeble human being that he had ever met when it came to elk and elk hunting.

That guide has worked for Doyle Moss for the last several years.

I've heard similar comments regarding some of his other guides as well.

Dislike the gang style hunting tactics all you want, but to claim that those guys are unskilled hunters is well...foolish at best.

I agree with what you are saying here Salmonella. They are very skilled people as a collective. And you don't find animals like that very often on dumb luck alone. They have to know what they are doing for sure. It would be nice to see some sort law in place to atleast balance the scale a bit. Great for the guy that can afford to outbid everyone for the tag. But I don't see how it is fair chase or sportsman like to be allowed to hire a small army to do the work. I'll stop now though. Cause this is one of those things that can be ran in to the dirt and all you would be is a little deeper than you were when you started. Single guides are good ethics, resonably sporting and a good way to learn an area and animal tendencies.

As far as moneys being used for good purposes, that is debatable at best. I personally have seen "improvements" made to small areas where I live right now. And to be frank, they were the biggest damn waste of over $250,000 of fishery and hunting invested funds. Every last bit of it was made into observatory property that can not be touched. Cougars run around the area killing peoples dogs, the building that is supposed to be the vistor center can't be used, the restoration of the river is for planted hatchery fish, and the access to it is based on whether or not you care to walk down a hill a mile or attempt the crossing of a major highway that is riddled with multiple vehicular deaths and collisions on nearly a monthly basis. So how are we benefiting as sportsman from that? I have personally talked to the person who is very proudly responsible for it and they have very little answers to any questions and only seem to care about where the funding is going to come from for the next part of the project. Which last time I had the displeasure of hearing from was apparently trying to solve the elk problem in the area. By asking for more money. Yes, I am a skeptic at best.

A couple more bulls from this year.

Both over 400"'

A wild free ranging bull from,,,,,,Nebraska.




A wild free ranging bull from the San Carlos Indian rez in Arizona.

History has proven excesive amounts of money makes people stupid. These guys could buy 350 to 400 inch bull racks online for $3.00 to $4.00 per inch if they are going to shortcut the sport aspect of hunting and harvesting one on their own. These clowns paid $340/per inch for the "Spidey" bull, and $140/per inch for the "Birdbath" bull, and that's not including guide fees.

I bet they wipe their asses with seanotes.

That last bull is massive. I just wonder how the hell they got the bull in the back of the truck though. It does not appear to cleaned or anything either. Wow.

Looks they were on a farm Pug. My guess is farm implements!
Our camp has shot one elk near enough to a road that we were able to winch it up to the road using snatch blocks and then above the road. We then lowered it into the bed of the pickup. It was pretty cool to watch. Dudes said that in 26 years of camp that was a first.

My deer I shot this ended up rolling all the way down to about 70 yards from the road. Made it real nice and easy to get in the truck. Still took two of us to get in though. Heavy biotch. That is a pretty interesting way of getting an animal in the bed though. I don't think I know many guys that actually have that kind of gear in camp though.

Howzabout a 437" muzzleloader bull....Utah '08

That's just silly, makes my stomach hurt!!

Keith